BONUS Episode: Dr. Marie Holowaychuk on how a childhood plan took a left turn and led to her passion for mental wellness | Episode 38 | Reviving Vet Med

Has your life ended up the way you expected it would? Are you happy with your current work in veterinary medicine or does it no longer feel like the right fit? 

In this bonus episode, I am interviewed byJordan Banshea, VIN Foundation Executive Director and host of the Veterinary Pulse podcast. We recap my journey in veterinary medicine including how I believed I would always work in companion animal general practice and how and when I realized that was no longer my path. We also discuss my experience getting into veterinary school and how I ultimately came to be an advocate for mental wellness.  

Resources

Vets4Vets: https://vinfoundation.org/resources/vets4vets/ 

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Transcript

Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of Reviving Vetmed!

In today's bonus episode I am interviewed by Jordan Banshea, VIN Foundation Executive Director and host of the Veterinary Pulse podcast. In our discussion, we recap my journey in veterinary medicine, including how I always believed I would work in companion animal general practice, specifically in practice with my mom. And how and when I realized that was no longer my path, we also discussed my experience getting into veterinary school and how I ultimately came to be an advocate for mental Wellness. 

I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I enjoyed my conversation with Jordan, and when you get the chance, I would love it if you would subscribe to the Veterinary Pulse podcast. I've got a link to their podcast as well as the VIN Foundation and Vets for Vets in the Resources section of the show notes for this episode. So with that said, let's go ahead and get started.

This is the reviving Vet Med podcast, and I'm your host, Doctor Marie Holloway Chuck and my mission is to improve the mental health and well-being of veterinary professionals around the world.

I drove myself to a state of further burnout and exhaustion until the day where I was in a serious car accident and I had to literally and metaphorically like wake up and stop and do something different.

That is Doctor Marie Hollowaychuck, a veterinarian with a passion for mental well-being, and this is the VIN foundations Veterinary Pulse podcast. I'm Jordan  Banshea, VIN Foundations Executive Director. Join me as we talk with veterinary colleagues about critical topics and share stories. Stories that connect us as humans, as animals, as a veterinary community, this podcast is made possible by individuals like you who donate to the VIN Foundation. Thank you.

 Please check the episode notes for BIOS links and information mentioned. A quick heads up that some of the content today's episode may include a trigger as it relates to mental Wellness. As a reminder, if you are a veterinary student or veterinarian, the VIN Foundation's Confidential Support Group, Vets for Vets is here for you and you can find information to reach out in the episode notes. Please know you are not alone. 

Hi, Marie, welcome.

Hi, Jordan, it's great to be here.

Thank you for joining us. I am really excited for this conversation today and Marie is in Canada. So our northern friends.Go Canada.

And where in Canada are you based for our audience?

Yeah, I'm in Calgary. So the western part of the country.

Oh, wonderful. OK. So share with us your journey to veterinary medicine. Was there sort of this moment where you just knew it was the profession for you? Did it come from an animal that you loved when you were a kid? How did you find your way into the profession?

Yeah, such a good question. And I'm always fascinated by these responses from others, you know. It was sort of born into me, I guess so to speak. Both of my parents are veterinarians. They're both retired now, but they met in vet school. They got married. My mom opened up a companion animal practice in the town where I grew up. And my dad worked in regulatory medicine. So he worked for the government for most of his career. And you know, I think my earliest memories are of working in my mom's practice, you know, from when I was very little emptying the garbage and cleaning the kennels, you know, to when I had more confidence and was older and was answering the phone and doing assistant duties. So I really always it was never a question for me whether I was going to do that Med. I think along the way I really pushed myself to consider other avenues. You know, I thought maybe I would go into rehab therapy or become a teacher or a professional athlete. You know, all of these things that some of us dream of. But I always just felt pulled back to that medicine. It just feels like. Home to me.

That's a great story, and that's not usually the story that you hear, because usually it's rare that you have parents who are also veterinarians, right? And so, I mean, you went into this with a lot more experience than probably most people go into veterinary school, right? Yeah. So what? Coming out of that. A lot of that first hand experience, what were the different aspects of it that you enjoyed?

Yeah. So. I loved when I worked in my mom's practice, you know, because it was a general companion animal practice that there was this connection with these families, and often they were multi generational clients. You know, they're the parents bringing their little kids. The kids grew up and then they bring their pets and then they have kids and then it just kind of continues. And I think my mom, you know, in her 40 some years of practice served up to 4 generations of clients in different families and I loved seeing people and greeting people whom there was that pre-existing relationship with and you know just getting to help, getting to help animals and getting to help people. I really do like people. And you know, I just, I've always been such a helper and a caregiver that it just felt like a natural space to be in around animals, you know, that I love and people who love those animals and most importantly, too, for me working in a team, you know, being surrounded by other people towards this common goal I played a lot of team sports growing up and and so you know working together as a team again just feels so comfortable and so enjoyable to me.

And so out of did you immediately go into veterinary school on that path or did you take some time or was it just absolutely, I'm going to vet school and we're just continuing on?

Ohh it was like tunnel vision gone into vet school.  I did the fast track into vet school like you know like I said in high school I think I briefly contemplated a few other careers, but it just nothing really felt quite right. And so I dove into my pre veterinary curriculum. I loaded it. You know, at the time you could really still cram all of your pre vet into two years, so I had a really intense schedule for two years. And I applied, you know, in my second year and I got an interview and then I got in. So you know, I was admitted to vet school when I was 19 and I was 20 by the time I, you know, moved to Saskatchewan and started that school. But it was a one track, you know, plan for me and and really at the time. The plan was to go to vet school, graduate and join my mom in the practice, and someday you know, when she retired, you know that the practice would be mine and things didn't quite go that way. But at the time, when I got admitted, that was certainly the plan.

And Canada has this really unique situation in terms of where you live and the amount of seats that are available. So can you fill our audience in on that a little bit because I just heard about that and I was pretty surprised,  so yeah, it's even more competitive in Canada than it is in the US.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're absolutely right. So Canada has always had a regional distribution for their vet schools and who gets to attend where so? Growing up here in Alberta, the Alberta government and the other provincial governments designate a certain number of seats that they pay for and fund. So in the hopes that those students will go into that school, they'll get their DVM degree, and then they'll return back to the province and fill the job openings for the veterinarians that are needed there. So there are different allotments depending on the province. And you apply based on where you live and so Alberta again, where I grew up, where I currently have moved live and have moved back to, we are notoriously the most competitive province. I guess there's a lot of people who aspire to be veterinarians in the province of Alberta.

 I mean, we're a relatively agricultural province. But also so there's large animals, you know, in food animals and actually a lot of equine as well veterinary work, but there's also a couple of large cities, so there's a lot of companion animal practice and exotic animal practice opportunities as well. So I don't recall the numbers, but for sure in my year there were 20 Alberta spots and there were well over 100, you know, to 150 applicants. So at the time, you know, we were screened based on our references, our transcripts and our letter of. Intent. And then once we reach, you know, once you reach the cut off, you know whatever that was based on grades or what have you. Then we sat and did interviews with an interview committee. So there's the Western College of that medicine that serves the western part of Canada. There's the Ontario Veterinary College that serves mostly Ontario Central Canada. And then there's the. Atlantic Veterinary College for the Atlantic Provinces and there's our French speaking veterinary school in Quebec that serves our French speaking Canadians. 

And now actually just here in Calgary for more than a decade now, we have our own veterinary school for Alberta specific. Quickly so no longer do Alberta residents go to the vet school where I went. They now go to the University of Calgary Veterinary school and again, it is really designated for Alberta students, although many of the schools, if not all of them, do have just a very small number of spots for those who apply outside of the local province.

Wow. So you were pretty focused. You got in. You're 20 years old. So you go to veterinary school. How was that experience for you?

Oh my gosh, it was challenging. I'm not gonna lie, you know, I thought it was just going to be amazing and easy and enjoyable. And it was my first year was really hard. So I'd never lived away from home. So, you know, it was about six hours away from from where I grew up. I didn't really know anybody in my class. You know, I had only been in school 2 years. A lot of these people who certainly who came from Alberta, had finished a whole degree or they were doing a masters. They kind of come to know others, you know, who'd been applying and a lot of the classes were really out of my wheelhouse. Like I'd really only done the basic sciences.

Right.

To get into vet school and a lot of my classmates, they'd already taken Physiology and, you know, animal sciences and other things. And so anatomy was very challenging for me. I nearly failed my first anatomy exam. Physiology was new for me and I know this of course about myself now, but at the time, you know, like I'm just, I'm not a good memorizer just photo photographic memory or just straight memory. I really have to understand the concepts in the context of a case or a problem, and so classes. Like Physiology and anatomy, there was so much memorization, I really struggled with it, and so the first year was a lot of homesickness. You know, I'm certain that I experienced some depression in my first year. I had friends and I have, you know, friends still to this day from my vet school class. So it wasn't all, you know, difficult. But, it was challenging, I think it was challenging for me from a social perspective because I was younger and away from home.

Right, right.

And challenging for me academically, for sure.

And what's amazing is you went in with so much experience from just a hands on experience in a veterinary clinic. And this was your experience, right? Versus you know, it would be interesting to hear the experience of others who went in without that hands-on experience. But perhaps the academic experience and how that changed their perspective. Right. So you get out of veterinary school and what's your first job?

Yeah. Yeah. So, I do want to give encouragement to those who are listening and are like, Oh my gosh. Like, ‘’if she can't make it in first year, like, what, how am I gonna do it?’’ It all got better, you know, towards the end of my first year, I had settled in second year. It was even better. A lot of people struggled in second year because they're like, oh, all of these. Allergies, virology. The pharmacology that I'm like, oh. My gosh, this is like. Getting into stuff that I actually understand, and I remember this virus and this parasite and these things that I saw in practice. And then of course the third year is even more heavy on medicine and surgeries, so. My grades improved as the years went on. I felt more confident and competent as the years went on and you know I graduated, you know, in a good spot in my class. So I'm happy. With that what I did. Afterwards was not what I had initially planned, which was to go into my mom's practice. You know, I hit my third.

Right.

Summer of veterinary school. My third year summer and I just started to really feel like I wasn't sure that general practice was for me. You know, I I had learned that there was this thing called referral medicine, and there were specialists and there was people, you know, beyond the walls of general practice. And that was never really apparent to me. You know, when I was working in general practice, or at least not to the degree that I was. Introduced to that in vet school. And so I thought, Oh my gosh. Like I would love to be the person on the receiving end of those referrals who gets to dig into these, like, really challenging and difficult and intense cases. And what could that look like? And you know, I started to think more about, you know, investigating things like emergency practice or other forms of companion animal practice. And so it was a. Incredibly difficult decision for me because of course it was not, you know, not what we had planned as a family and certainly not what my mom had in mind. But I made the decision to apply for an internship and so after that school, my first job was a small animal rotating medicine and surgery intern at Washington State University. So that was my first foray into, you know, life outside of my mom's companion animal practice.

Yeah. And I mean this is like a prime example of when a plan doesn't go as planned, right and? And and then you're also in the states, right. So how did that shift things for you as you're now out of the ordinary school? Your mom's like, wait, we sort of had a plan. And I. Was kind of.

Depending on you to come on in.

And then now you're in Washington state. So you're in the US. And how was that experience for you? Because there's definitely. You know, I've spent a fair amount of time in Canada and. And it's a different culture, right? I mean, it's a different culture W versus east in Canada alone and then it's a very different culture in Canada versus the US so how is that experience for you dealing with clients and being a new veterinarian?

Oh yes.

Yeah, it was. You know it went better than I had thought. I was nervous to move to the states, you know. Moving from Alberta to Saskatchewan, it's the neighboring province. It, you know, it was a smaller city that was not so much of a challenge for me moving to Pullman WA. You know, in some ways.It was a very small town, you know very heavily. College town situation. I think because it was such a, you know, it's also very rural, you know, setting very agricultural based the the people there and the students there were so friendly and so kind to me. 

I just, I feel like I just fit in so well. I mean, I was the token Canadian, don't get me wrong, so. I would get a lot of teasing, remember, for one round period one, of the students kind of shouted out at the end of the rounds. You know, the case rounds. They were like ‘’Doctor Hollowaychuck, you said A 15 times during today’’. I was like, what? So you know, they pointed out all of these like, little Canadian mannerisms that I had. But with such kindness and humor. I just loved it. You know, I initially, of course, there was that imposter syndrome like ‘’Oh my gosh, all of these interns and students, they're so smart and they it's just such, you know, a bit of a different curriculum down here and everything else’’. 

But overall, I felt pretty well prepared with my training that I had. And because it was such a small town, you know, getting around and getting to the grocery store like that all felt reasonable to me. I brought my dog with me, so that was a comfort for me. We had a really close intern class. So you know we meshed really well. I felt very supported that way. 

It's small, it was  at the time. It was a pretty small school. So the interns, the residents, the students, we kind of all hang out. And honestly,  I have such fun memories from my internship, and that really lit a passion in me as well for emergency and critical care. So yeah, the food was a bit different. 

The culture was a bit different, you know, the language was a bit different, but I mean, let's be honest it felt very much at home to me. So this lit a passion for emergency and critical. 

And did you go in that direction after?

I did, yeah. So then I applied for a residency program and I matched it in NC State. So I moved even deeper away from Canada. That was a culture shock moving to North Carolina. More of a culture change there, alright.

To be truthful, I do still call North Carolina my second home. Because spending three years there in such an intense program, I have some of my closest friends who are there who might keep in touch with, you know, 10 plus years later, you know, it was amazing. But yeah, I remember driving across the country and getting to Raleigh and saying to a friend of mine who had come. With me like. Why do my hands feel so sticky? Like why does it feel like I need to take a shower? We just got out of the car and he was like, welcome to North Carolina. Like, this is the humidity and the heat. And you know the accent. I had a hard time understanding some people with their very thick southern accent. And you know my middle name is Kate and somehow it was translated that my name was Mary Kate. So a lot of people were addressing me by not Marie my actually you know like and so there was all. These were all.

Of these, in hindsight, very humorous things happened. But you know, I loved the residency. My mentors are such important people in my life still to this day. And yeah, culture shock is real. That was a big adjustment for me.

Yeah, I can imagine that would have been a big shift for sure for sure. And so you're so you do a residency and you still continue into ER, in critical care.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. I did my residency and then I just, you know, I fell in love. I had already fallen in love with it. But it's just my love for teaching and research grew, you know, out of being in academia. You know, basically that school, internship, residency. So it was really no surprise for me that I chose to go into academia after my vet school. Pardon me, after my residency finished, so I applied for a bunch of academic jobs. A few of them are in the US, and then one opened up in Canada at the last minute at the Ontario college and I jumped on it. 

I thought, Oh my gosh, like to be back in Canada again. I mean, at the time there were so few specialist in Canada. You know, I think there was only, gosh, less than a handful of critical lists across the country. So there weren't a lot of options for me. There weren't a lot of programs open and so to be at the Ontario Vet College, you know, one of the, the oldest veterinary school in North America, the oldest one in Canada, of course. And you know, so I took it and I loved it. And it was, it was great. I got to teach in the classroom. I got to mentor and teach in the clinic. I did a lot of research. I had different graduate students and summer students. I really, really enjoyed it and unfortunately I got really, really burnt out. So that was kind of the segue into a lot of the work that I do.

And so what is Your current role in the veterinary profession today?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, gosh, I wish I had a proper title for it. You know, I guess I call myself a A well-being advocate. So right now, what I do, as you know, a solo printer, meaning, you know, I kind of work on my own and do my own thing is that I advocate for mental health and Wellness in our process. So I do that in the form of education. You know, I do a lot of speaking and teaching. I have online programs and coaching programs for veterinary team members. 

I work with some different organizations to design mental health and Wellness content for their team members. So I wear a lot of different hats. We do a lot of different things and all of it really is to serve my mission of improving the mental health and well-being of veterinary professionals. I do still love emergency and critical care. I definitely have, you know, a drive still to do clinic work and to maintain that skill set. I don't get to do it as often. Usually when I do, it's a bit of relief work. Here and there and you know, some research and teleconsultations as well on the side. But most of my work really is supporting others in the profession who you know get to do this amazing work. You know, in veterinary medicine.

Yeah, and. And so you alluded to just a moment ago that being in this critical care and in this job that you really did love, but it was a lot that drove you into this interest of veterinary mental Wellness. What did that path look like for you from being a burnt out critical list to where you are now? 

Such a good question.

We hear from a lot of people through our vets. Vets mental Wellness program that they are just burnt right. A lot of critics. Lists are just exhausted and burnt out and a lot of them say I just want to get out of the profession, right? So how did you find your way from being burnt out to finding a space where you're finding? In this Wellness space.

Yeah, I know. I'm so glad that you asked and you know it. It's kind of a long and sordid story. I'll, I'll. Keep it as. Short and succinct as I can. You know, I left my job at the Ontario Vet College, which was really my dream job. You know, like there was nothing wrong with the job. There was nothing wrong with the work. Yes, it was hard. And yes, being a critical list is challenging. We're, you know, someone has to be on call all the time. And that tends to default to us. We have very challenging high stakes cases. I loved all of that. I didn't love being on call 50% of the time. 

That was a challenge, you know. But that wasn't why I left my job. I left the job because you know, I live with mental illness and I wasn't managing it well at the time I was having a lot of anxiety. Symptoms, panic attacks. You know, before going back on clinics, a lot of excessive worrying about my research and my students. And you know, those types of things. And, you know, I think living so far across the country, it's ironic that you mentioned it earlier in our conversation about the difference between Western and. Eastern or Central Canada living in Ontario felt very different to me than where I had grown up, and I I had this consistent sense of, like not fitting in and not really belonging. And so, you know, there was a lot of things that contributed to it.

 But at the end of the day, Jordan, it just came down to the fact that. I didn't know what burnout was. I didn't know what was happening to me. I didn't even really know how severe my mental illness was, and I didn't know most importantly what to do about it. So without the language around it, and without the tools to support myself, I just had this pervasive sense that this isn't sustainable for me. And so I had the reaction that so many people in our profession have, which is that I just need to get out. Like I need to leave. This isn't working for me. I don't know what to do.

Right.

And so I resigned. I gave them six months notice so they could find another faculty member to fulfill all of my duties, and  I left. And this was still, when again, there wasn't much, you know, critical care across Canada. So I didn't have a job to go to. I moved home and I thought, well, I'm just going to locum as a critical list. And I'm going to continue to teach and speak at conferences because I love that so much. And it just got worse from there, from a mental health and well-being perspective. So now starting my own business, I went into workaholism mode. I became depressed, working by myself. So much of the time not having a lot of work. And I drove myself to a state of further burnout and exhaustion. Until the day where I was in a serious car accident and I had to literally and metaphorically wake  up and stop. And do something different and so that's where it was. Like, almost like someone was shaking me, you know? And I was like, OK, like something is wrong. This isn't working. I need help. 

And so that's when this therapy started, that's when I dove into mindfulness and took mindfulness. The stress reduction program for eight weeks, that's when I, you know, gave myself a month off to do yoga, teacher training and to dive into that. And the learning, the reading, the healing, all for my personal. You know, Wellness and mental health started and as that continued, I started to have this sense of like, where was this information for me 510 years ago when I really needed it? And why are we not disseminating this information now to others in our profession? And we know we're struggling because this was, you know, this was back in 2014, you know, we were talking about suicide and mental health more because Sophia yen, you know, had died by suicide.

 And we had some of these. YYou know, higher profile incidents and people were starting to have conversations, yet no one was talking about solutions or very few people. And I felt called to continue on my path of teaching and educating and inspiring. But rather than emergency and critical care or in addition to at the time. I thought I'm also going to see if people want to hear me talk about this information and that's. Where it started.

Yeah. You mentioned Sophia and she, you know, is a horrible loss for the profession and in case anybody isn't familiar with her, her family actually chose the VIN Foundation to have her. The Doctor Sophia Memorial Fund, and I'll put a link to that in the episode notes so that you can learn more about her and some of her amazing work. And that I think that was, I've heard from multiple people that that was a huge wake up call. And I really want to also just applaud you for taking that time for yourself and kind of finding your own journey, right? I mean, I imagine at this point your mom's probably even more like, I don't think she's coming back to run this business. You're right, just checking in. Just curious if that's going to be.

But she did she.

Did circle back to me a few times. And well, when? Well.

Part of your path.

It's so funny when all this happened and I told my parents I was going to do my yoga teacher training certification for a month, they said, so you're going to be a yoga teacher now. They were just so like they could not get their head wrapped around my crazy friend.

So then you come and run the practice. Like at what? Are you running the practice? That's where we. Kind of. Want to loop back to if you are running the practice. That we are. Able to retire because that was our plan, right?

Oh, I know. Bless their hearts.

Well, you know, I think that those sort of shifts right in life that are driven by passion are the right ones, right? And that's me. I am a very passionate person. It drives a lot in my life and I think when you're doing that. Work that is truly from your heart and that you feel at your core, you know, and in your gut is right for you. I feel like people respond to that because they see that it's also authentic and true, right? And so great for you to like to find some.

100%.

Sort of path there. Because I think that that is so challenging for so many and definitely you know where we are now versus where we were in 2014, hopefully in a better place from the perspective of I think there's less stigma around mental Wellness. There's definitely more resources. When we started vets for vets, so we're 15 years ago, it was definitely just sort of this initial thought of like clearly people are needing help, right? And so how are we helping them? And it's wonderful to now see more and more. Without a doubt, there is still a lot of room for improvement, right? And a lot of room for collaboration and supporting colleagues. And I think that that's such an important part. And when it comes from passion, I think that's that's the best. And so since you're so you know. In this field. Now what do you see are some of the most important topics in the veterinary mental Wellness field?

Yeah. Well, you. Touched on a lot of them, Jordan already. You know, I think this idea of stigma reduction is tremendously important. You know, there is a lot of research from surveys among us veterinarians. You know, years ago now that demonstrates a very prominent stigma. It's not, it's not unique to veterinarians. There's a lot of help. You know, caregiving professionals who have a similar. Resistance to seeking help for their own mental illness, I think because we're such intelligent, heady, you know, mind using people and professionals to think that we have something that maybe quote UN quote wrong, you know, with our mental. Health that this is. 

We feel very shameful about it, so we're unwilling to share and we're unwilling to seek help. Or we believe that the help is not going to change our circumstances, which is what I hear a lot of people say, and which is why a lot of people do. To, you know, abandon the profession in some circumstances. So talking about it, having these conversations is so important and most or equally important is offering solutions. You know, I think we've heard the stats. We know the problems most of us have experienced first hand. How do we make it better? How do we enact change? How do we take care of ourselves? How do we adjust? Some of the cultures that are so pervasive in our profession, you know, whether it's the martyrdom mentality or, you know, blaming our clients for our circumstances or whatever it might be. But you know, taking ownership of what we have control over as individuals to take care of ourselves, to take care of our mental health. And for those who are in leadership roles and who can enact change when it comes to systems and procedures and processes in veterinary medicine taking. A good look. With those systems in place, how can we make things better, more psychologically safe, more reasonable in terms of workload, you know, et cetera for our team members. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done. There's a lot of research. That needs to be done. But I do believe that having the conversations, thinking outside the box, supporting each other, taking care of ourselves. I mean, these are all really fundamental. Topics that I think we need to really give attention to.

Yeah. And I think a lot of that comes from also the awareness like we've spent a lot of time recently on really focusing on pre vets and helping them realize like a realistic look at what the. Profession looks like and sometimes that means they're not going to go into the profession, and that's OK. If it means that they're not. The right fit right? Because I think that we spend so much time being reactive, right? But how can we proactively help and I think that's an important aspect as well that often gets.

Totally agree.

Overlooked, and I think that that's an important resource, right, because we think about veterinary mental Wellness, we think OK veterinary students, sometimes they think that in general it's thought of as veterinarians, right and without a doubt the students. For so many reasons, you know, there are challenges in veterinary school and the majority of them are not getting the support in veterinary school that they need from a mental Wellness perspective. And then on top of that, you know, how do we prepare them right? So we help them so that when they go in with eyes wide open, right, I mean. There's a lot. They will come out and there is this very odd current. Need to either be a zoo vet. Or a wildlife vet or and it just and It's like I feel like a majority of the prevents that we talked to and. We were at a prevent conference and someone from Massey was like, do you want a job? Because we're you just need to think about the things where there are jobs out there.

No doubt.

Because those are few and far between, right? So setting them, helping them set up for success and giving them realistic looks from a mental Wellness perspective, what that looks like, like what the profession looks like as well, right. So that they have at least that support going in and hopefully better expectations because we definitely see it with students. And we've found that students who are thriving in their first five years out of veterinary school are thriving throughout their career, and if they're struggling in the first five, then they're struggling throughout, right? So how do we support them? Like you know, I mean, it sounds like you sort of went almost the opposite way in veterinary school cuz you started really struggling and then you thrived, right. And then you got out and you were thriving, thriving, thriving and then you got into position your dream job and. You're like, whoa. I'm actually not thriving here, right. And then kind of going through. That, you know, roller coaster again. And that's what life's about, right? Are these sort of roller coasters? So what do you find are some of? The most helpful. Resources that you've come across for mental Wellness. Currently in the profession.

Yeah, well, you know, I definitely advocate for, you know, pure support options that are available. So you know, like you said, the, you know, Vin vets for vets is just such an incredible resource. As you said, it's it's, you know, it's been established so long ago and. You know, it is just such a reputable resource for individuals. It's definitely one that I. And you know, in addition to peer support, I do strongly advocate for, you know, support from a mental health professional, whatever.

Absolutely, yeah.

That looks like. For different individuals, I know, for me I have certainly leaned on peer support, friends, family and loved ones and to a. Point it. It is helpful and I've also had to. Recognized times in my life where I actually needed professional support. And so yeah. So if individuals have an employee assistance program where they work, if they've got those benefits take advantage of them, a lot of provinces and. State medical associations also offer employee assistance programs with their, you know, licensing fees. So to take a look at that, speak to your family physician. There might be local resources that you can utilize. There are a lot of mental health resources out there, you know that are more available. And in some instances, more affordable. Even some of our online counseling services now, like, better help and and and similar services. You know, they've got, you know, packages that are affordable and very. Visible to individuals, so that's definitely another resource that I would recommend. You know, I would be remiss not to obviously share from my own journey around how much mindfulness has really had an impact on me. It was actually my physician who suggested to me and my psychologist concurrently who both talked to me about. 

You know mindfulness and was this something I had ever considered or practiced or thought of? And I didn't know anything about it at the time, but my psychologist suggested that I do an 8 week mindfulness based stress reduction program, and I know that Ben has offered these in the past as well. And you know, it was transformative for me. Just immersing myself in the practice of mindfulness, this present moment. Awareness so that I wasn't having anxious, worrying thoughts about the future and that I wasn't dwelling in ruminating on past experiences, but that I could be present. You know it. I saw such an improvement in my depression and anxiety symptoms. And just more responsiveness and awareness to myself and to others rather than, as you know, as you said, this reactivity, this, you know, walking around in a fog of just like projection and rumination and reaction, you know, so my relationships improved my health and well-being. Improved. Certainly my mental health improved. I became more aware of when I needed to take a break or hydrate or eat something or, you know, talk to someone. So that is absolutely a resource that I would recommend for people.

Yeah, I can say that mindfulness for me has been a game changer and it's I think that at first it can feel like how do I do this, am I? Doing this right like OK.

Is that good? Like, how does this? How does this work right?

And you know it can just. I bought a book for my nephew called "Be brave like Batman" and it talks about taking deep breaths and so I have them like, what's a deep breath like, right. Like even just taking that step right, it decreases your cortisol levels. It just helps you, just like take a moment and once you are able to just Nope. First of all, nobody knows what they're doing in the beginning. So just. Know that out of the gate, right and. No one wakes up and is like a mindfulness master, right? But there's just such huge value and what I love is that it can happen. Anywhere at any time, nobody even needs to see or can recognize that you're doing it. It's that private loan within yourself that you have the ability to go to whenever you need it, right and. The power with that. Is huge because really the only thing we can control is our actions. Like really that's? You know and that's but there is such huge power and mindfulness. I really I'd like to give another vote for that as well, because I think that that is extremely, extremely important. So yeah, I love these resources that you've shared, Mary. It's just been Marie I love.

I love these resources. You've shared Marie. I almost want to call you, Mary Kate, just from North Carolina. Just cause you do it out there as an option, you know? But Marie, these resources that you're talking about are really important. And. And they might seem obvious, but I think that, you know, like in life, we're only ready to hear things when we're ready to hear things. Right. And so hopefully some of our audience are listening and maybe this is a time for them to hear. Are there any other things that you want to share with our audience today? I really appreciate you taking the time.

Thank you so much I. This has just been such a wonderful conversation and I agree, just so many great tidbits shared. I think I could talk all day about mental health and well-being. You know, I think you know, just, you know, going back to what we shared earlier, just as far as stigma reduction goes, just really. Urging people to seek help. And at the end of the day, if you are someone you know who lives with a mental illness or you feel as though you know you're experiencing some sort of mental health challenge or problem right now, just know that this does not make you a bad veterinarian in any way. You know, I think we so often take the guilt that I don't feel my best. I'm not functioning at my, you know, at my at my. Greatest to the shame of there's something wrong with me, you know? And I'm, I'm somehow, you know, bad in some way. And it's just not true, you know. Remember that. Certainly by my age, by the age of 40, you know, half of us will have or have had some sort of mental illness in our life. And so this is so common you're not alone and there is help for you. And so please, please take advantage of that.

I think you said that perfectly and I couldn't agree more. You're not alone. There are so many people available and willing to help. Thank you so much for your time, Maria. I really appreciate it and I really appreciate your willingness to be vulnerable and share and for sharing your story with us.

Oh, it's my pleasure, Jordan. Thanks for having me.

Thank you. Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Veterinary Pulse. Please check the episode notes for additional information referenced in the podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast, please follow, subscribe and share reviews. We welcome feedback and hope you will TuneIn again. You can find out more about the VIN Foundation through our website, vinfoundation.org and our social media channels. Thank you for being. Here be well.

So that's it for this episode of reviving that Med. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. I really do urge you to think about accessing the resources that are offered by the VIN Foundation. Vets for Vets is a great resource that has been around for quite some time now and they are constantly coming up with new and better ways to support the mental health and well-being of veterinarians and veterinary team members. 

And if you enjoyed this episode of the podcast and you'd like to have access to the reviving vet Med episodes as they drop, please do subscribe. And if you can think of just one person in your life who would benefit from listening to the podcast, please do just share an episode. This one would be a great way to introduce them to me and some of the content that we talk about. I would really appreciate it once again, if you're interested in those resources that I mentioned earlier that we discussed in today's episode, please check out the show notes.

And if you have any questions about the episode or suggestions for future episode topics. Please e-mail us at info@revivingvetmed.com. I'd like to thank my amazing assistant Jamie for producing this episode and the Veterinary Pulse Podcast for being so gracious to allow us to reshare the episode. I hope you'll TuneIn next time. In the meantime, take care of yourself.

 Bye for now.