Belonging at Work: How DEI Strengthens Veterinary Teams | Episode 64 | Reviving Vet Med

Creating a workplace where everyone feels seen, heard, and valued isn’t just the right thing to do — it’s essential for effective teamwork and sustainable wellbeing. In this episode, Avery Alston, Director of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion at Veterinary Emergency Group, shares how fostering belonging can transform veterinary workplaces from the inside out.

We explore the connection between DEI and team performance, the role of psychological safety in high-pressure environments, and practical strategies that any practice can implement to build a more inclusive culture. Avery also offers powerful insights from her experience leading Culture Camps and mentoring diverse teams — reminding us that when everyone has a seat at the table, the whole team thrives.

Whether you’re a leader, team member, or just starting your DEI journey, this conversation is filled with real talk, actionable ideas, and plenty of hope for the future of veterinary medicine.

Watch the Video Version of this Episode
https://youtu.be/F3K60ObmrqU

Resources
The missing piece in veterinary wellbeing: Why DEIB matters more than ever (blog): https://revivingvetmed.com/deib-in-veterinary-medicine/

Follow Avery Alston on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/avery-alston-6596a3b3/

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Transcript

INTRO
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Speaker 1
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Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of Reviving Vet Med. In today's episode, we're going to be covering a topic that is a little bit controversial in today's landscape and that is diversity, Equity and inclusion, or DEI. I chose this topic because in 2025, World Veterinary Day is themed Animal Health Takes a Team and I wanted to address this theme through the lens of DEI. So joining me today via interview is the brilliant and inspiring Avery Alston, Director of DEI at Veterinary Emergency Group. Avery brings a wealth of experience in operations training and leadership development, and she's known for building inclusive cultures that empower teams to do their best work.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
We talk about everything ranging from psychological safety to representation in the workplace and how to create spaces for all voices because it isn't just good for people, it's essential for patient care and team performance. So whether you're a leader in your practice, a new grad, an associate, or another team member, and you're just passionate about making vet medicine a better place to be, there's something for you in this episode. I'm really excited to talk more about this topic, so let's go ahead and get into it.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
This is the Reviving Vet Med podcast and I'm your host, Dr. Marie Holowaychuk. My mission is to improve the mental health and wellbeing of veterinary professionals around the world.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
Okay, well.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
Hi Avery, welcome to our conversation.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
I am so happy to get it.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
Chance to talk to you today.

Avery Alston
Awesome. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
Of course. So we're going to jump right in and I want to hear a little bit about your story. I know that you've had several roles at Veterinary Emergency Group focused on culture and DEI. Can you tell us a bit about your journey into this work and what drives your passion for helping others find belonging at work?

Avery Alston
Yeah. So, actually, fun fact, I don't come from veterinary medicine. I always like to say that I'm supposed to be here because I snuck my first dog into the house at 16 and now my parents have four of them. And so I helped them find their love for animals too. But I actually started in big box retail management and I considered myself as the manager that always got sent to what was the trouble store or somewhere that needed to fix the culture, which I actually don't believe to be a thing, but we'll get into that. And I got a call from VEG and I knew that this is where I was supposed to be.

Avery Alston
So I started as a hospital manager, actually did that for a while, and then moved on to our culture team and was in charge of basically introducing our new employees to the veg way, which is our culture. What is VEG all about? And from there moved on to people. And so there was a lot of imposter syndrome, especially not coming from vet Med. I was always a manager who was very hands on. I knew that I could do things faster, better than my team, and I could show them how to get there. So any of the expectations that I put on my team, I knew that they could be done. And coming in the vet med, I was like, I don't know anything here. How is my team going to respect me?

Avery Alston
How am I supposed to get them to do anything if I can't even do what they do? But I've realized over time that no matter what position I held at veg, my passion has been helping people enjoy where they work. I'm a firm believer that we spend 90% of our time awake, at least at work. And how sucky it is to not enjoy or feel like you belong or feel like you have a voice or you're appreciated, at minimum, where you work. And that's carried me through every position. And I've realized you really get that through just talking to people and treating them like humans. Right? Figuring out who they are.

Avery Alston
And so I think that no matter what position I've held at veg, my why has always been, how do we get people to feel valued, feel that they're truly a part of the team? And that's led me here today in my work in DEI.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
I love that. Well, I am so glad that you crossed over into the world of vet medicine, because we certainly can use you and I know you're doing wonderful things. It's interesting because the World Veterinary day theme for 2025 is Animal Health Takes a Team. And I'm wondering what this theme means to you in the context of DEI.

Avery Alston
Yeah. Even in retail management, I was a general manager and so I had managers underneath me and I told them that you are nothing without your team, even as leaders. Right. And I think that actually defines the difference between when you talk about a leader and a manager. I always see a manager as someone who delegates, tells you what to do, and a leader will show you the way, explain the why. And I think that they understand that they need their team because no matter what you're trying to achieve, you can't get that done. And when you see the amount of different people that you can have on your team and really understand them as individuals, only then can you utilize them to their full potential. And so talking about what it takes to be a team is.

Avery Alston
It takes those diverse perspectives, those diverse backgrounds, diverse voices in order to really bring upon like the greatest things. And so if you don't take the time to understand your team and what motivates them, because not one thing motivates every single person. Again, if you're money driven, even if that's what you care about and some leaders do, you're financially driven, you won't see the revenue that you would. If you don't have a team that works together collectively and again feels appreciated and wants and motivated to do the work. That's really how I see it. It takes all of us working together to achieve a common goal.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
Yeah. And the journey towards that common goal is going to be so much more effective and probably efficient in the long run if we incorporate those diverse perspectives and diverse backgrounds and everything else. So I love that. In your experience, how does a culture of inclusion support better teamwork and communication? So making sure that everyone feels included in the process, how does that impact team dynamics and other things in your experience?

Avery Alston
Yeah, if I look at it as if you and I are working together, but I don't feel like I can speak up or I don't have a voice to share my opinion, then I'm just going to go along day-to-day and I'm going to just come in and check a box. I'm just going to do what I need to do to get done and maybe even skim below the surface if I can. Right. Because I have no say. I don't feel like I have anything to offer. And if something goes wrong, I Don't feel like maybe it's not my issue. When you're able to share, I do believe, like, truly including people is saying, hey, we're all sitting here.

Avery Alston
How can I pull out a chair and tell you that, hey, you can sit here too and not just have a seat at the table. But I'm including you in the conversation of, hey, what did you think about that? Oh, this is the way we've been doing things, but I noticed that you do it differently. Why is that? Like, how did you get to that point? I think it increases efficiency, but that's when we talk about, like, innovation. That's how that comes about. When people feel that they can share their voices and they feel included. And that's so important because otherwise you don't understand. You have all these people on your team and they have no say. You don't know who they are and you don't know what their needs are or what more they can offer.

Avery Alston
And so that's why you want people to be able to speak up and share and actually. And have a voice on your team.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
Yeah. So what I'm hearing is that inclusion really does allow people to speak up. Right. It fosters that sense of psychological safety where somebody sees something that could be done better or differently or they see something that nobody else sees, that they have a voice to share, that they feel as though it's safe to share, that I imagine, you know, that contributes to better patient outcomes as well. Because I think about mistakes that happen that are almost always the result of a systemic problem or a systems issue. And if nobody wants to say anything, even though their input could potentially prevent that mistake from happening again, that's going to be detrimental to the team and the patients long term.

Avery Alston
Yeah, a hundred percent. And if I so often too, there's that shame, Right, of even being able to speak up, especially when it comes to medical quality. If they don't feel like they're included, usually they're working towards that. Everybody wants to be included. It's a human need. Like, we need a sense of belonging. And so in me striving to belong and feeling like I don't, there's no way I'm going to admit my mistakes because otherwise I'm just going to feel like, and we know this historically in vet med, right, that we work with a lot of Type A personalities. And so that's just another, again, barrier. Even that, like, would prevent somebody from feeling like they can speak up and share their point of view.

Avery Alston
And so important too, for, again, not Even innovation, but how we see the people that walk through our buildings and how we can offer a better customer experience.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
Even like you said, if you already feel like you don't really belong or you're not included in the team, the last thing you want to do is kind of feel even more on the outs by sharing, oh, I don't know what I'm doing or I made this mistake, you're going to feel like that's going to push you even farther away, which is goes against our survival instincts. Right. As human beings, what do you think are the common barriers to belonging in veterinary workplaces, especially for those with underrepresented identities? And how do those barriers impact a person's wellbeing?

Avery Alston
Yeah, and, you know, it's interesting. I don't think the barriers that exist are intentional, especially when it comes to underrepresented groups, but when you are a part of the majority, you don't understand what it feels like to walk in a room where nobody looks like you. And so I tell this to our teams all the time. If I asked everyone in a room to raise their hand if they thought that they were an exclusive person, someone who purposely tried to exclude others, nobody would raise their hand. Everyone thinks we're welcoming, we're friendly, we're nice. But it's more than that, especially for people that walk in and again, are maybe one of two or one of one, whether it be, again, feeling like you can even relate to someone else.

Avery Alston
I always say if you walk into a room and there's no tables available, or like there's tables available, for instance, and you can sit with a group of people who look like you, or you can sit with a group of people who do not look like you. You're going to sit with people who look like you because you feel like you have more in common. You'll automatically be accepted. You have things to talk about. So being on the opposite end of that, when there is no option for you to sit with a group of people that look like you're innately feeling like, am I going to be accepted? What do I have to talk about? All right.

Avery Alston
And so no matter if we say hi or like, hey, and we seem nice, it's about really going out of our way as the majority to again, not just pull out the chair and say, hey, you can sit here, but engage them in actual conversation and try to learn about them as much as we can about their experience and where they come from. And like, not ethnicity or identity wise, but where they come from, even professionally. Yeah, right. What are their experiences like? And so I think there's invisible barriers that we don't often see or think about. I've seen it. Even with personalities, it doesn't necessarily have to be underrepresented groups. It could be personalities that are not, again, a little bit unique. It could be extroverted. We hear it all the time, too. Extroverted versus introverted.

Avery Alston
And so the people on your team who are quieter, how do we bring them into the conversation and make sure, like, okay, maybe they don't want to speak up as a large group of people, but maybe I can sit with them one-on-one and still get their insight or see how their day was, have them, you know, speak up in a more private environment. But I think it is extremely difficult to include people again in the way that really makes them feel seen. It's the little things, right, of even, like, remembering someone's name correctly, pronouncing it correctly. We call them micro affirmations. Right. Listening intently and stopping everything that you're doing to focus on what they're saying. Especially in ER medicine, things are moving so fast that we're not being intentional about the moments that we have with our coworkers.

Avery Alston
And so you do have to kind of retrain your mind to remember that this person is different and it's okay. And I want to recognize them because they're different. I don't want them to feel that they have to be the same. And I want to take their experience and learn about it as someone who is coming from an underrepresented group, whatever that may look like. And so I think it's intentional and small actions that we can take every day to make those people feel included, because there's a lot of barriers that they come in with just on their end that nobody has to create for them.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
Yeah, that's so helpful. I love that term, micro affirmations, like you say, those little intentional ways of really making sure that all members of the team feel included. I guess it goes back to that innate human need to feel seen, heard, understood, and valued. And if, you know, a person might already feel, like you said, because they look different, act different, sound different, whatever it is, that inherently they're not able to achieve that feeling of really being understood and valued. And so, yeah, that's really helpful advice for everyone on the team. You've touched on this already, and I mentioned psychological safety before, and I know that this is a lot of the work that you do in terms of creating spaces where people do feel safe to Speak up and share ideas or admit mistakes.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
What do you feel is fundamental to creating that sense of psychological safety in the workplace?

Avery Alston
Yeah, I usually say this to leaders, but I think that everyone's a leader or could be in their own right. And when I speak about leading, it's modeling the way. And so a lot of times, I think the first step is just showing that you're human, being vulnerable and opening up yourself. Right. Realizing and admitting your own mistakes that you make. And so I think that's the first thing, because it says, okay, it is okay to make a mistake. It is okay to be struggling today with your mental health or however you're feeling. It's okay to come in and not be at 60, 100%. And, you know, you had a really tough shift the other day, and you're not feeling it, because, again, that's the great part of having it. Just back to your other question.

Avery Alston
That's the great part of having a team is that if you're feeling 63, then maybe I can give a little bit more because I have it in me today. But you have to be yourself. Like, yourself have to be willing to have that vulnerability and speak up about what you're truly feeling. Or, again, whether you did something even great. Oftentimes we talk about, like, oh, when you make a mistake, because we're always focused on what we can fix as professionals. We're never focused on all the things that go right. But you also have to train that muscle, too. People need to feel good, okay, and empowered to celebrate their wins. And I often don't see us do that. And some people are scared. Or I hear people say, oh, I'm just this. Or, I'm just an assistant or, I'm just a nurse. 

Avery Alston
No, you are a veterinary nurse. You are a doctor. You are a great doctor. Right? And so I think it starts with you and your vulnerability and you creating again and being okay with admitting whatever it is that you focus on. And then I think the next step is, how do you lend that to someone else? And so when we talk about creating psychologically safe spaces, micro affirmations go into that listening, showing that you care. Right. That you're genuinely interested in them as a human being and not just as whatever you need them for in that moment. Mm. And making them feel like, okay, I trust you, and maybe you gave me really tough feedback, but I trust that they came from a great place, and I feel okay to challenge you on maybe some of those things.

Avery Alston
Again, we're using a new POS And I'm struggling with it. And I don't think it's great because of our patients. I don't have the ability to, you know, put in treatments the way that I, or as quickly as I could or efficiently as I could. But even though you're my leader, I know that I can talk to you about that because I know you care about patient care as much as I do. And so I think it's really about getting its first step. Vulnerability. Being open and honest about whatever it is that you're speaking about, but then getting to know your team, paying attention to them, listening to them, seeing them as a person first before anything else. And then because you understand them and you have that relationship with them, you know the questions to ask.

Avery Alston
They, again, trust you, that you're doing or having these conversations for the right reasons. And they know that what they are saying or what they have to say is going to be heard. Because I think when we talk about safety, it's not just about me feeling like I can say it, but that when I do say it, I'll be listened to totally. And so if they feel okay to say they're not going to say anything if they feel like it's falling on you, don't want to hear them. Right. So we need to make sure that people know that we do care and that their opinions and their feedback are warranted not only, but also we want them. And because they have their stakeholder. Yeah, Again, nothing without your team.

Avery Alston
And so you see that you need your team, then we need their feedback and their feelings, too.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
Yeah. Inviting that feedback and following up on it or really taking it to heart rather than dismissing it, I think is so crucial. Like you said, Avery, you've spoken a lot publicly on LinkedIn and elsewhere about Veg doing the work year-round. What are some specific practical strategies that VEG has implemented to embed DEI into everyday team culture?

Avery Alston
Yeah. So when I got into this role, one of the biggest things to me was that DEI, and I don't believe anywhere that DEI exists, that it can be a program. It has to be a part of every single thing that you do. They're not words plastered in a handbook or on a wall. They are actions. I feel the same way about. I feel like it shouldn't be a noun, it should be a verb. And I think, again, it's how we treat each other. It's really, when I break down, it shouldn't be. Okay. Yeah, It's Black History Month, or AAPI Month is coming up and we want to celebrate those things. Those, yes, that does make people feel good and people feel seen, but those come around once a year.

Avery Alston
And so it's the little actions that we can take to show that we truly see. You mentioned it earlier, but I like to see and value you. And so even on a hospital level, it's okay. I know that Marie is really big on her birthday, so I can get everyone here to sign a card and say, happy Birthday, Marie and get her favorite food. Right. I also know that Sammy does not want any attention on her birthday, but does really appreciate a good maybe like pin, right? Or something like she's big on pins and so I can quietly give her a pin to add to her backpack. Those are the small things that you can do to affirm people and make them feel seen every day. Pronouns, right? Having someone that maybe uses non-traditional, as we would call them, like pronouns, right.

Avery Alston
Or something that's new for the team, instead of making them feel isolated and only giving them pronoun pins, why don't I now introduce name tags that everyone has pronouns on them and so that it becomes a part of our culture that we just use everyone's pronouns and make sure that we're using them correctly again, it could be recognizing that something that is not a part of American tradition.

Avery Alston
So under like Ramadan is starting up and noticing that you have maybe one or two employees that celebrate or recognize Ramadan and not plastering it over a wall, but in letting sending out a group chat and saying, hey, just so you know Ramadan is starting, please make sure that we're keeping an eye out for these employees, letting them take their breaks when they need to pray or again, even just maybe not eating in front of them if they're having a hard time. And these are things that I just want to call out that you find out from your employees before you go and decide this is what they want. Right? But if I have a talk with my employees, how would you see it or see best that your team supports you through this time? They tell me.

Avery Alston
And then me, I carry that out. And so it's little small actions like that we do on a day-to-day basis of how we treat people in the culture that we want to create. And then you have big things on the more operational side, right. Of even what you worked on with our nursing team on nursing schedule guidelines, right. Making sure that we are setting our nurses up for success during their shifts. Right. Or throughout their scheduling to make sure that they have enough rest in between or it's hiring bias training that is now mandatory for all leaders so that we can not only widen our talent pool, but make sure that we're equitably assessing talent when they come through our doors, if they do look different or maybe don't show up how we expect them to.

Avery Alston
And so I think there's organizational things like that we do, but then there's also the day-to-day thing. Again, it could be ergonomical equipment, right? Making sure we have the right equipment for our teams to make sure they can actually have longevity in this career. Because we know it's highly physically demanding. It's things like that.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
Yeah, you touched on so many things and it's so clear this conversation. But you and I have had many conversations, you know, over the last couple of years, about how big of an intersection there is between wellbeing and DEI. I mean, just so much of it goes hand in hand and it's really not possible to have one without the other. You mentioned representation and intentional hiring practices and so on. How can veterinary workplaces be more intentional about representation? Not just in hiring, but mentorship, leadership, decision making? What strategies do you recommend?

Avery Alston
Yeah, this is tough, right? Because again, I think we all think that we are inclusive and that we want the best for people, but the truth is that we only know our experience. And so I think it starts with, you have to want to do the work. You have to find why representation matters to you. Because if it doesn't, especially in veterinary medicine where we are 90% white and female, then it's going to be very easy to not find that representation. It's not going to just walk through your doors by the boatload. It's not going to happen. And so you have to find why you want your team to be representative of the community that you serve. Which is, I think that is, I always say, part of DEI is meeting people where they're at.

Avery Alston
And so even if you don't truly believe, which is, again, I understand everybody is not as passionate about this work, but. But even if it comes to your bottom line, the truth of the matter is the US is a huge melting pot, right? Our population is consistently getting more and more diverse. Pet owners are consistently getting more and more diverse. And who better than to help a customer that actually understands them and comes from their same background in their community? And so at least it can impact your bottom line. How nice is it for a customer that maybe doesn't speak English to walk into a hospital and be able to speak their first language with someone or even just seeing them. What a breath of fresh air it is for them. If that has to be your why, that's fine.

Avery Alston
Your why might also be that everyone deserves the same chance. And I want my hospital to be different than we've ever done anything before. But it starts with you finding a why. You have to find the why. You want representation in your hospital, why it matters. And once you do that, then there's this shift that happens and then you start seeing, oh, I can go to this event or oh, I can tap into the IVMA, I can tap into NABV, I can tap into this network and see where I can find these people. Or maybe I start working in the community and seeing, oh like my. Everybody loves teaching and I get feedback on that sometimes. But I think that we work in an industry where everybody's super passionate and how can you not want to extend that to someone?

Avery Alston
It doesn't mean that you want to be an instructor or anything, but people love showing things. And so like, oh, I found that my team is very passionate about teaching. Why don't I just partner with this school and an underrepresented community and have them inspire young black and brown kids that they can be in veterinary medicine? Or we talk about abilities a lot. Like it's not something that we're talking about a lot now, but it's not something that's really spoken about at all within veterinary medicine. Where can I go and say like, oh, I can go to this school and show that like, yes, you don't have to be this type of person or be fully mobile or have all these access to these things to be able to work in veterinary medicine.

Avery Alston
And so it causes you, in order to diversify veterinary medicine and show representation, we have to think outside the box because the diversity is not just going to pop up. And so in order to do that, you have to find your why for wanting to do the work? Because it's not easy work.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
What would you suggest for teams or individuals that are just starting this work? What is one low barrier action that they could take today to move towards building that more inclusive and connected workplace?

Avery Alston
Yeah, I think just start asking about other people's experiences. So often we have diversity in front of us in some sort of way. There's always diversity of thought and nothing else. There's always diversity of thought, but affinity bias. Right. Are the things that attract us to people who are like us. We hear about it all the time. I want like-minded people on our team or I want people who fit, like they fit the culture like they just don't. And we say it all the time. Right. We have our people. I challenge everyone. Go to someone who you don't organically mesh with.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
Right.

Avery Alston
Or that you don't maybe think of your person and just find out a little bit more about them. You could ask them questions, genuine, intentional conversations with people. I think that's the easy first step. We all have our own experiences. I say this all the time. I am only as good as I think I am at this work because of my network. If I don't have people like you, if I don't have people like anyone. Right. That's different from me. I'll never forget I had a call when I first started this work and somebody talked about size inclusive furniture and how every single chair we had in our hospitals had arms on them and they were uncomfortable for people who were larger to sit. And I was mind blown.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
Yeah.

Avery Alston
Because that's not something that I had thought about. But if I don't have these conversations and learn about things like, hey, what is your experience? And open up for them to give me feedback or just again, tell me their story, I would never know. And so I think the best thing, the easiest thing again that you can do is just start asking people. Lead with curiosity. That's the easy way. Lead with curiosity. If you don't understand something, find a kind way to ask.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
Yes.

Avery Alston
Ask the question.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
I always say, abc, always be curious.

Avery Alston
Yes. I love that. Yes, yes. Always be curious. I think that's where I would start. Yeah.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
Well, I want to end on a high note. I want to know what gives you hope about the future of vet medicine when it comes to DEI.

Avery Alston
Yeah. I think for as loud as the negativity is and all the things that are really scary for a lot of people right now, that we are more knowledgeable than we have ever been and we are more open for everyone that seems like they're getting a little more closed minded. There's somebody who is even more open minded. I talk to our new ER doctors rather than join the company every quarter and each quarter I get more and more questions and they're more and more engaged in sharing their feelings. And that excites me. And I think that is a representation of again, the people that are coming into this industry. And I think that they feel. I don't even know if it's safe to be themselves, but I feel that they have a feeling that they deserve to be themselves.

Avery Alston
And I love this when we talk about different generations, like, I think gone are the times where we just come to work. And I love these new generations because they're like, I'm not coming to work just to work. I want to do something I'm passionate about and I want to belong, and I want to be myself when I do it. And so I think I am hopeful that people are more mindful and open minded to others and their experience. And so I think we will continue to create a more inclusive environment because we won't tolerate anything else.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
I love that. So many wise words. Avery, thank you so much for your time today. It's been a real treat to talk to you. I feel like I could talk to you all day about this stuff, and I just genuinely feel gratitude for everything you're doing for our profession. So thank you.

Avery Alston
I could talk to you every day about anything you were. I feel the same exact way about you and I'm so grateful that you had me on today. So I really enjoyed talking to you.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
Thanks so much.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
So that's it for this episode of Reviving Vet Med. I hope that you took away from my conversation with Avery some newfound awareness when it comes to the importance of diversity, equity and inclusion in veterinary medicine. If there's one thing that you do after listening to this episode, I hope that it's to forward it to a colleague or a coworker or someone else you think might benefit from it as well. We would love it if you would subscribe to the podcast so that you're sure to get the new episodes as soon as they drop. You can also follow us on social media at Reviving that Med for tips and strategies for wellbeing in veterinary medicine.

Dr. Marie Holowaychuk
If you have any questions about today's episode, suggestions for future topics, or inquiries about sponsorship, please email us at podcast@revivingvetmed.com. I'd like to thank the team at Bear Beat Productions for producing this episode, and I'd like to thank you for listening. I hope you'll tune in next time. In the meantime, take care of yourself. Bye for now.